it felt like being back in space until the bad stuff started happening. >> mark what about the authenticity? >> so here's the thing, piers. the real physics of space flight doesn't make a great movie. but the look and the feel of the movie was outstanding and entertaining. there are some things that just aren't reality. for instance. there isn't an extra spacecraft as a rescue vehicle just left at the space station with no crew to occupy it. so we don't have spares of those, usually. >> mark, kelly. it's great to talk to you as always. and send my very best to gabby. >> thank you, piers. thank you very much. >> "ac360 later" starts right >> "ac360 later" starts right now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com

welcome to "ac360 later" thanks for joining us. a lot to talk about tonight. stunt politics, conservatives including share rally at shutdown memorials in washington one speaker telling the president to, quote, put the quran down. we begin, however with the government shutdown, day 14, the clock ticking toward the debt ceiling deadline. the senate could be close to a deal. senators are using words like "very close" and "productive day." even harry reid is optimistic saying perhaps tomorrow will be a bright day. sound likes a song from "annie" joining me sunny hostin. and in the fifty chair, rick lazio. let's get the latest on the

possible senate deal from dana bash. >> the sun will come out tomorrow -- just kidding. the deal right now is that everybody in the senate, the two major sides, mitch mcconnell and the people he is trying to please and harry reid, the democratic leader and the people he is trying to please they feel like they have given a little bit. the democrats wanted to extend the debt ceiling through the election next year but they won't get that. the republicans wanted to have a very, very short window for opening the government, you know, democrats wanted to have it longer. they have a give and take on that. what's unclear is how this is going to sell with senate republicans first. that's going to happen tomorrow morning. and more importantly how it's going to sell with the house republicans who want it to go much further with regard to obama care and the debt ceiling. we'll have to see.

every conversation we had with house republicans when they voted tonight they are keeping their patter dry. >> there is no defunding of obama care or nibbling around the edges, just minor things? >> exactly. when it comes to obama care if they do anything it will be nibbling like making sure that the income is verified for people who have low income and they need to get government subsidies and something that the unions want. so this is something that the democrats wanted to give to their constituency having to do with a fee for employees. nothing that has to do with big things like the individual mandate and funding but it's the democrats are not going to pay a ransom but they are giving a little bit. >> i don't want to get too far

into the weeds. but i was hearing this will go right to conference rather than the house floor. if you go to conference it's not an amendable bill. you take it or leave it. you can send it back with instructions as opposed to bringing a bill up where everybody could have 75 amendments. is that possible? >> it is entirely possible. in fact, rich, the house republican leader put out the notice about what they're doing in the house tomorrow and left open the possible the house would vote on the own bill to extend the debt ceiling. the problem is, even if it's expedited we're talking about tomorrow being tuesday and the debt ceiling thursday. so there's really not a lot of time even by senate standards and house standards. >> you still have to name conferees. it won't be a clean up and down vote. >> what do you see happening? >> you know, i think this could have been played out two weeks

ago with naming conferees and kicking this down two or three weeks from now and this is how this is playing out. you will see this extended until january 15th, a time with the sequestration, which is a big issue for a number of democrats to revisit. republicans want to use that as leverage. they are going to kick this down the can and down the road which is fine, bring down tempers and stop the discussion that's going on right now. >> but there is no guarantee john boehner is going to bring it to the floor, is there? >> there's no guarantee but is it a big test of leadership and a number of republicans are going to go south on it and the question is will john boehner bring it to the floor? >> the so-called hastrick rule is not that it has to pass with

only republican votes but a majority of the majority. and if hoyer and pelosi can get 100 to push throughout you have a deal. >> i just want to focus on what you said. this will take leadership. it takes leadership to avoid a default of the united states. they've brought this to this point over this much time and now it's leadership? i mean this is no leadership especially from the republicans. i mean, what has ted cruzzed to go from this crusade apart from bringing this country to the brink of economic catastrophe. >> if you give a little bit, if you give even around the edges. if you give into the nibbles, then it validates the strategy. >> dana talked to ted cruz.

did he say he would support it? >> he is holding his cards close to the vest. i asked him if he would use all the tools available to him that any senator has to try to slow this train even the first train, the senate train and he said i'm waiting to see the details of the plan. but that is something to remember he could use it and could delay the sequence of procedural events that need to happen in the senate and we could reach thursday -- >> to andrew's point what has ted cruz got out of it? >> i have no idea. the strategy of using the debt limit and the cr as leverage to try and reveal obama care was ill conceived. so i grant everybody that. i will also say that i think getting back to andrew's point that there is an enormous amount of frustration that have had a series of trillion dollar plus

deficits and adding $7 trillion of debt and they wanted the president to provide leadership. simpson bowles turned his back on. that it is insanity we don't have agreement on entitlement reform. >> i'm for tax reform too. i'm for a grand bargain. but it has to raise revenues so the democrats have one side of the bargain. what the republicans are opposed it's not a grand bargain. it's their way or they will destroy the economy of the united states. >> you got $600 billion of new revenue the last go around. >> a sequester level. >> and if you look at the -- >> the deficit from the last three years have been going up or down? >> the debt has been going down. and the deficit -- >> for the third year in a row the fastest decline in the

deficit since demobilization after the second world war at a time when the economy is depressed and you are arguing policies for austerity of a moment of this fragility. >> i think we agree on this. the other side will say by the time the president has left office he will add more debt as much as all the other presidents combined. as a percentage of economy as a result of the last hike in tax we will have historically rates of revenues coming in. so there is taxes that have been raised. >> revenues are at the lowest they have been in 50 years. >> not any more they aren't. >> it's marginal. >> the third point is, if you are arguing that in the short term that the federal government needs stimulus and you think that we need more discretionary

spending do something on entitlement. it's two thirds of the federal budget and the president punted. >> i agree. i agree in entitlement reform. but until the tax reforms raise revenues to pay for the retirement and the structural things that will have to grow then it's not a deal and they are not behaving like grown ups and created this crisis out of nothing. and that delegitimatizes the republican party on deficits and the economy. >> we'll talk more about this when we come back. use the #ac360. up next, less than 60 hours from now until the debt ceiling is reached. we'll be right back. ♪

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welcome back. we are a little over 49 hours away from the debt ceiling deadline. as we mentioned there is a sign that a deal could be close in the senate but we are talking about washington. so who knows. would a u.s. default be catastrophic or is it much ado about nothing? do you think it would be catastrophic? >> i don't know. i'm not an economist. so what i do is listen to all the economists i know and all the people who are quoted as economists who know about this and they all say even flirting

with it could be catastrophic. and my view when people use the word catastrophe about the american economy and the global economy then we should not be here tonight, anderson. we should not be anywhere close to here. and the party who got us here has to be punished. we are talking about millions of jobs that could disappear. >> except we heard the same thing when -- i don't know i'm not an economist. i'm not on your side. but what i'm saying is we heard the same thing about sequester and now on the shutdown. we are depending on the guys who got us into this mess to start with in 2007. we bailed them out with trillions of dollars and used that to pay themselves bonuses and they are saying oh, my god. >> the chinese are wringing

their hands. this could fundamentally marge list america 234 the world economy if the american economy is treated this way. >> we heard the same thing about sequester. >> let me bring in david walker head of the government accountability office and ceo of comeback america initiative. how bad would be the? what would it mean, going over the debt? >> only god knows and god's not telling us. i will tell you this, it's way too much finger pointing and way too much hyping. article 4 of the 14th amendment of the constitution makes it clear that bondholders of u.s. debt are guaranteed. they're going to get paid. the question is who is not going to get paid on time and what kinds of penalties and interest will we have to pay because of the prompt payment act. i think the senate is going to

reach a deal but is it going to be acceptable to the house. >> there are a number of how republicans who are running on defunding or delaying obama care and that's not going to happen. >> i think it was down right stupid for the conservatives in the house to be able to make obama care part of the cr. that was downright stupid. it's going to be a peripheral part of whatever is done. we have to focus on the spending. we have to invest more in critic critical infrastructure and cut back on programs that don't work and put mandatory spending on the table and tax expenditures on the table. if you define spending broadly one of the objectives that should take place is to agree on spending reductions that include

tax expenditures and additional investments to put us on the right path. the us asterity versus stimulus is a false course. >> as we know every line in the tax code has a champion. every line in every appropriation bill has a champion. we try to do a grand bargain as you were talking about earlier houch how do we get there? >> especially when paul ryan is ready to torpedo it. a i think you can do an 86 deal where you can lower the rates and still raise revenue. there is a sweet spot there. and the main objection is the republican refusal to raise revenues. >> i was about to agree with you. >> i think you have to listen to

the american people. you have to listen to the american people. i travelled to all 50 states. we have 97% agreement that a grand bargain is important and 85% that it will be reductions and revenues. we had a minimum of 77-90% on reformed and eliminate the tax expenditures and reduce the top marginal tax rate. but what we fail to have is leadership and we didn't have it from the last president either and secondly these people are not listening to the american people. we have a republic that is no longer representative of nor representative of the public. >> if the president does not provide leadership the thing doesn't get done. and to andrew, to your point,

absolutely. in the context of a big deal taking on entitlement reform. you have a pathway to sustainable to budget deficits over a long period of time there is a place for additional revenue. >> no one in the house republican caucus will agree to that. >> that's not true. everybody is talking about paying for it by closing tax loophole. >> they are raising -- >> but i will give you -- >> don't we have over $2 trillion of revenue that comes in. we can service the debt. the debt is $250 billion. why is there this discussion at all? we can pay our debt. we can service the debt. >> we are only -- the money coming in only covers 70 cents on every dollar. we have to borrow on the last 30 cents to make the payments. >> we have to choose who to pay. >> and interest on the debt is

10%. >> once we get to normalized rate. >> you are going to look at a trillion dollar in ten years at normalized rates in about ten years with 7 trillion dollars more of debt you will have another trillion added. >> the president is in favor of means tasting medicare. when has a single republican said they are open to more revenues? >> they are talking about it and i'm a cpa changes the cpi. >> increase in revenues to help the government and give the democrats something from this. what are you going to give? >> they raised $600 billion that they requested. >> the president's budget estimates we will be spending $800 billion for interest in ten years.

that is more than on national defense in ten years. secondly, both political parties are responsible for growing government too big, promising too much. it's time to restructure. yes, we need to reduce spending but we need more revenues. two to one spending reduction to revenue. we will get the revenue from comprehensive tax reform that lowers rates and generalizing revenues. >> david walker. >> they will be there. they will be there. >> i don't see any of them anywhere right now. >> up next we've seen a number of political stunts in washington. now a veterans group claims its weekend rally in the capital was hijacked for political gain. we'll see what the panel has to say coming up. [ nurse ] i'm a hospice nurse.

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♪ ♪ i turn my camera on i cut my fingers on the way ♪ >> political stunts are a way of life in washington. a veterans group is crying foul. it organized a rall in to protest the barricades erected to close national monuments. but it turned into an antiobama rally. >> this is a matter of shutdown priorities. now -- our military -- our

vets -- our -- >> you're an idiot. >> our vets have proven that they have not been timid. so we will not be timid in calling out any who would use our military, our vets, as pawns in a political game. >> sarah palin talking about using vets as political pawns. larry claman issued this message to the crowd. >> i call upon all of you to wage a second american nonviolent revolution to use civil disobedience and demand that this president leaves town to get out, to put the quran down. to get up off his knees and to figuratively to come out with his hands up.

>> the group behind the rally essentially said that it was hijacked for political purposes. they want it it to be bipartisan. what did you make of this rall? >> -- rally? >> it was revealing about a certain faction that he is a duly elected president and the way to repeal and changes laws is by winning elections and doing it the traditional way and the way to pass budgets is to negotiate be. you they just want to nullify the mass election. the other thing i would say is this i have yet to say a single republican denounce that rally. until this someone the 24 republican party is prepared to take on the extremists they will keep gaining in power and momentum. i'm tired of waiting for someone

responsible to take these people on. >> whenever this happens on your side -- >> on my side? >> yeah why don't you denounce that? it's not my job. he speaks for himself. >> the former vice presidential candidate accusing the president asking -- she's on the same platform. >> she didn't say that. i'm not a fan of sarah palin. >> who has to condemn this on the right? >> would it make you feel better if i do it? >> it's a start. >> you can bay at the moon but the moon doesn't care. >> they are baying at the moon. it's your job to tell them to cut it out. >> they are baying at the moon. you have to tell these people to stop it. >> it happens -- >> it does not happen on both sides. >> the liberals not in quite such colorful words but they

didn't think that george w bush was legitimate over eight years. >> you have a confederate flag and people calling president obama a muslim. i was so disturbed by what i saw and another part that didn't make sense you have senator cruz. he is the shutdown champion, how are you going to be protesting the shutdown of memorials and things like that? i mean is he outraged at himself? it doesn't make sense. >> you said -- you are looking for one establishment republican to condemn it. i'm looking for one person who is aghast at this to lead by example and to be more several about the dialogue. it's all of our responsibility. the things that the president has said and harry reid and the republicans and conservatives have said have not made it better for the american public. they have not helped us make

progress. they have divided us further. everyone needs to take a chill pill and calm down. >> you don't think that ted cruz, the person that brought this country and the world to this brink is at that rally legitimatizing those ideas -- >> let's play what ted cruz said at the rally. >> this is the people's memorial. let me ask a simple question. why is the federal government spending money to erect barricades to keep veterans out of this memorial? why did the federal government spend money to erect barricades to keep people out of mount vernon? why did the federal government spend money to erect barricades to keep people out of mount rushmore? look, our veterans should be above politics. enough games.

>> let's bring in gloria borger. it was disturbing when they were in front of the white house and just some individuals. but i feel bad for the police. the police come to create a line in front of the gate of the white house and they're being called brown shirts and one person said it looks like something out of kenya. what did you make of this? >> here's the thing. ted cruz is saying our veterans should be above politics and it turned into a political rally. and i think if you -- there was one veterans group who said they were sad about it. veterans went there because they didn't like barricades in front of veterans memorials. some of them may blame president obama. some of them may blame the republicans. but for whatever reason they wanted to send a message, which is, please don't close these memorials.

they ought to be open all the time. they ought not to be barricaded. and ted cruz, sarah palin, et cetera, turned this into what was a political rally. and you know, it's no surprise. i mean, look, ted cruz is running for president. he's appealing to a base of the republican party that sarah palin appealed to. and it's no coincidence they are together. >> does anyone think he has a shot? >> i don't think he has. i think, anderson, with a certain segment of the republican base he has done himself some good. i'm not sure that wall street is going to be giving ted cruz an awful lot of money. but with the republican -- with the base of the party, a segment of the base that say may vote in iowa, for instance, i think that ted cruz has lifted himself out of the pack.

>> well, but remember, gloria, what we went through last time where we had this sequencing of front runners who lasted a week or ten days and fell down. that's where cruz is. we had the same thing with marco rubio. he was the daryling the of conservatives for a while. it's too early to know whether he's going to -- >> he had the gal to propose something constructive about immigration reform and has been banished. if i they are purging one sane republican after another, all the people you could go to the talk to, all of these people are being purged from the party in favor of this palinite fringe. >> andrew is the analyst of the republican party. >> i have watched it for a long time. i think it's a dangerous organization that has lost sense of reason that took this country to a place that no one should be taken to.

>> where are you politically? where do you consider yourself? >> an independent. i have never been partisan of either party. i supported reagan and bush and then clinton and george w bush and the iraq war and learned my lessons and watched the republican party become something i do not recognize as conservative in any sense of that word and -- >> do you consider yourself conservative? >> but not that kind of conservative. no conservative would try to destroy the world economy over something like a modest health care reform that mitt romney put in practice. these people are crazy, anderson. they have lost all senses. i don't think there is anything conservative about threatening to bring the global economy down to its knees because he felt like it. that's a radical. they have to be put back in their place. someone has to do that in the

republican party and soon. >> and if the republican party is going to be a presidential party and not just a congressional party then they have to appeal to the independent voters. in the most recent "washington post" poll, 2/3 independent voters are done with the republican party. >> do you think this has lasting impact. the elections are 13 months away. >> i would say to gloria's point which is right on, the national party has to listen and appeal and persuade other people out of their hard base. and this is a huge challenge for republicans right now. i think there is a sorting out period right now where they are finding their way. but they're going to have to when they talk about compassionate conservativism or empowerment they have to have a narrative and agenda that backs

it up and connects with people. so there's a lot of work to be done and the party in my view cannot be defined by ted cruz and sarah palin and be a national party right now. >> i think it's going to come from the republican governors. no one has run around spending much time in columbus, ohio checking up on john casic. but that's where this is going to come from. they are going to say enough. you are killing us. >> up next, an alleged al qaeda operative arrives in new york to face federal court accused in bombings in kenya and tanzania. our panel weighs in on the case next. [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman,

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welcome back. the u.s. has brought an alleged al qaeda operative to new york to here. he is expected to face a federal official tomorrow and a trail in u.s. federal court for allegedly playing a roll in the 1998 bombings of the u.s. embassy in kenya and tanzania.

not in guantanamo. joining us at the table, jeffrey toobin. you think it's a good idea to have him tried in federal court? >> one thing the federal government does well is prosecute criminals, especially terrorists. is it a tremendous record of success not only in convicting people but persuading the world that we have a legitimate legal system. they have got fair trials and been imprisoned there is no reason he al libi wouldn't be treated in the same way in a way that does credit to our system and country. >> any act of war that would -- would convince you -- i'm not being ugly about this. i don't understand it. is there any act of war that would convince you -- >> you say it's an act of war?

>> you think he should be tried in a military tribunal? >> i would come to that conclusion. if an embassy is u.s. soil it's no different than attacking the u.s. monument. >> what i have a problem with is the fact they seemed to rush al libi through. they hold him off shore in a u.s. navy ship. they keep him for only a week. he is supposed to be a treasure trove of information having lived two decades in the epicenter of al qaeda and that's what i worry about is he is rushed into the civilian system because he's got to be released into the criminal justice system. and two anomalies is he is held on a u.s. navy ship, potentially indefinitely. and number two is, the

administration seems comfortable sending drones in to kill operatives but very uncomfortable detaining them and questioning them for long periods of time. >> i agree with jeff. federal prosecutors have a 90% conviction rate in -- >> i think in all cases and terrorism it's higher. >> it's higher, exactly. so you know if they kept him for a week you would think the intelligence they needed they received and what is this about? it's about making sure that someone can do no harm and gather the intelligence you need. >> and my understanding it's not clear how much current operational information he had and he has been out of the business living with his family in libya for a while, how much of his information is more past about -- >> the medical thing here. he does have hepatitis c and they did not have the ability to treat that on the ship. that is partly why this happened. i think we have to look at the

success of military tribunals as well. i take your point, rich. they are all in part of this country's legal system and at war they are used. but the way that bush and cheney set them up in which people were tortured for long periods of time rendering their convictions impossible in any decent court and destroyed this country's reputation as being a country of justice and made them unable to prosecute. >> and remember, there are 100 plus people in guantanamo now, no one knows what is going to happen to them. military tribunals there is a place for them. i don't think we should do it very often but we can't keep people forever with no trials. that's the nightmare of guantanamo. people held a decade, no charges.

criminal court, military tribunal. >> is that better or worse than sticking a held fire missile into their head? >> look, we we are at war with al qaeda around the world. part of that war is using drones. i agree. there is a paradox here that we're all tied up in knots about how to try these people but we have no problem sending a missile into their tent. >> and the people being hit by drones, many of these people are innocent and the government has acknowledged they are innocent of everything. >> i have no problem holding people indefinitely when they are affiliated with al qaeda. >> how do we know? >> how could you have no problem with that. >> we're at war with america, he defined he was at war -- >> you have no problem with someone -- >> in a military context that's what -- to have a -- >> it goes against what we are

as americans. >> and torturing. >> i am not talking about torture. being held indefinitely and having information -- >> a lot of these people in guantanamo were rounded up by northern alliance fighters and -- >> i know. >> doesn't it shake your very core. >> and you're assuming the conclusion they are all al qaeda people. if they are they should be tried and prosecuted. but the problem is there is no evidence. >> and no process. >> and what about the comment that this allows somebody like al libi a platform to spout their views and allows them a platform to -- >> i just think -- first of all just doesn't happen. these trials have not turned into -- >> they have no impact in the

world. but to the extent they have an impact, so what, so what. it is worth it to have a system that is internationally respected as a place where people -- >> and transparent. >> if it works so well, why do we still have people in guantanamo? why did president obama say he is going to close gunman guantanamo and five years later -- >> the congress won't let him. >> he has no -- >> there is no evidence against some of these people and concern about just releasing them. >> exactly. >> but there is a simple answer. andrew is right. congress passed a law that said he can't close guantanamo. you can't fault him for that. >> up next, what is your story? the panel has a chance to share a story that maybe you and i missed. we'll be right back. peace of mind is important when you're running a successful business.

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sunny? >> i was reading about this six-year-old boy that drowned on the carnival cruise ship. i cruise every year with my family. and what has always struck me as bizarre is there are not life guards on the ships parents are supposed to be -- >> and no child under 13 is supposed to swim. >> a tension between personal responsibility and a corporate responsibility. >> a six-year-old dies? >> yeah. shouldn't carnival be making things safe. >> i'm struck by a good essay by a man called matthew scully in "national view" he worked for sarah palin. he connected the pro life movement with the movement to protect the welfare of animals. made an argument to protect the vulnerable in our society that

extends to those animals we produce and torture and kill in these disgusting factory farms that treat them really as subanimal in a way. and with max mall cruelty. and i think that is a sign of intellectual life on the right. and i think these factory farms people will look back at us and wonder why we allow concentration camps for nonhumans in our country. what we're doing to pigs right now in this country when you think they have the same intelligence as dogs is nothing short of horrifying. >> i am talking about the washington redskins. i think that what is going to happen is dan snyder is going to say it's time to change the name of the redskins and make $10

billion in new beer mugs and hats and coats and within five years there will be a different name. this is a nonstory. this is something that should be a story. almost every day that goes by in the media you hear about education, jobs and health care. you never hear about affordable housing. but what mother is prepared to start her first job when she slept in a van the night before? what child is ready to go to school if his bed was under a bridge the night before? what senior is prepared to go to clinic to get medication if they slept on a park bench? it's a human tragedy. in new york city, the largest and wealthiest city in america tonight there will be more homeless kids than fans that fill madison square garden. it's a tragedy. and it can get fixed. >> it doesn't make headlines. >> mortgage interest reduction

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welcome back. so a lot of weird things happen in commercial breaks on this program. sometimes the conversation

doesn't end when we go to commercials and sometimes it gets heated and not ready for primetime. but we want to hear an exchange overheard in the break about vice president joe biden and harry reid. >> there is no reason to believe that harry reid will screw this up. when he has the power back in his hands -- >> and he is found in negotiating these things ever. >> i have been saying that biden disappeared and now we find out reid won't let him in the building. >> he cut a bad deal the first two times around. >> andrew was talking about something two weeks ago. i cannot get it out of my mind. i want to thank our panel. that does it for this edition of "ac360 later." shutdown showdown with jake tapper starts right now. tonight, a cnn spia